You were at one time the President of the Nigerian Bar Association, looking back now, how well do you think the law profession has done since that time?
What did you say that made him do that?
We suggested to him to spend a term in office; to see how we would nurture our democracy. We pleaded with him. We said, for our democracy to have a smooth take-off, spend one term of four or five years in office and that the NBA was ready to assist him to see how we could amend the constitution. We made a lot of suggestions but he could not tolerate me any longer, he banged his fist on the table; it was bad. He said what kind of law are you talking about? Then it got to a stage, I said Mr. President Sir, I have a speech which I want to read, if you don’t want us, can we take our leave? At that time, I was packing all my files. Members of my executive were there. You could have heard a pin drop. Then Agabi and Abdulsalami had to come in and said the President would no longer interject you. After we left, I understand Obasanjo asked them who made that rascal the President of the NBA and that Agabi said he is not a radical, he is one of the best we have in the profession. That is why till tomorrow, I will always respect Agabi. I learnt that he defended us, the NBA. When a lawyer was being arrested, I gave Obasanjo 24 hours to release him, he released him. While I will commend NBA presidents that have come after me, I want to say that the NBA should not and never be for ‘bread and butter’ or ‘Yes people’. Although, we should not be rude to the government, the NBA president must be able to pick up courage because he has lawyers behind him. When an NBA president speaks, he speaks for all the lawyers in Nigeria, whether we like it or not. So I see no reason why NBA presidents will not be able to talk on issues relating to fundamental human rights, criminal prosecution, justice sector, economy, and so on. The NBA must always take a position; always. We are too big to hibernate. When Obasanjo increased the price of petrol, Adams Oshiomhole (former President, Nigeria Labour Congress) approached the NBA to defend him. Obasanjo took them to court; I went as NBA president, leading Falana and others to stand in for the NLC. Everybody has his own style; that was my own style. Today if an NBA president goes to defend the labour union, people may start lambasting him but the NBA president must first of all do it. You must be on the side of the masses. Ghali Na’Abba (former Speaker of the House of Representatives) could not believe what we did when the House of Representatives wanted to impeach Obasanjo. I left Lagos and sought audience with him. He said but this man (Obasanjo) does not like the NBA, I said NBA is above pettiness. It is a question of Nigeria and the stability of our democracy. He showed me all the allegations and in fairness, they were not just out to embarrass Obasanjo; they were not frivolous allegations. Some of them were provable but the NBA said no, don’t do it because of our young democracy that needed nurturing. So comparing then and now, I will say the NBA has been on the quiet side, even on matters that concern lawyers.
Recently, the Federal Government and some members of the public have accused the NBA and the judiciary of aiding corruption with delay tactics to frustrate the anti-graft law. Do you agree with that?
Nowadays, you see people talking about lawyers defending some people. A lawyer is at liberty to defend any person that briefs him. So you should not condemn the lawyers because it is Mr. A, it might be you tomorrow. Frankly speaking, the government and those condemning lawyers are very unfair to lawyers. Have they cast some people aside as lepers that are untouchable? A lawyer must muster sufficient courage whether in criminal or civil actions, to take up the defence or the case of his client without compromising it and without minding whose ox is gored, but it must be done within the ambit of law. He must not go outside that to do what is criminal simply because he wants to save his client or win a case for him. But within the ambit of the law, a lawyer has sufficient room to meander. And a lawyer must be fearless and resolute but he must not be rude. Otherwise, don’t come to the profession. Some people don’t know and some pretend not to know that law has its technicalities-both civil and criminal proceedings. They talk of technicalities and say that lawyers delay cases, look, without being immodest; I have been involved in a lot of cases in this country. I have defended a lot of people. During the run-up to the 2015 elections, I was one of the lawyers hired on pro bono basis to defend the All Progressives Congress and its candidate, Muhammadu Buhari. We employed all the tactics available, employable and allowable in the legal profession; why didn’t they blame us then? If we didn’t, the election would not have held. If you do that today, some people, even within the profession, will blame you. I know what I’m talking about. The election was to hold on a Saturday and Justice Gabriel Kolawole of the Federal High Court, Abuja, said he was going to deliver his judgement on whether or not card readers should be used by the Independent National Electoral Commission on Thursday, two days to the election. We filed preliminary objection, he overruled it. I was in court with Lateef Fagbemi (SAN), Akin Olujinmi (SAN), and Kola Awodein, (when) Asiwaju Bola Tinubu sent an aircraft to pick me in Akure, saying that if we were not in court, the election would not hold. There are things that need to be unveiled in this country. Tinubu, Babatunde Fashola (former Lagos State Governor), the Vice President (Prof. Yemi Osibajo), Lai Mohammed, the AGF (Abubakar Malami) were in the know. And Kolawole overruled us. Then he called the plaintiff and said, can you go ahead with originating summons? I will deliver my judgement tomorrow. Like someone who was possessed, I rose up and said I was applying for stay of proceedings. Then the other lawyer interjected and asked for my formal application. I gave him two authorities offhand that I could apply orally. That was two days to the election. Kolawole said well, whatever it is; I would want to listen to you. He listened to me. We did it pro bono in the sense that the APC hasn’t paid us. Nobody even wrote a letter to say thank you. Then thereafter, he wrote a ruling and granted stay of proceedings 48 hours to the election. The Supreme Court later held that, though the card reader was a good innovation, it was not yet in the law. Would Buhari have been President if we had not done that? What could be more technical than that? They filed action against Buhari, we looked at it; we raised objections and we were dragging that. Is that not technicality? And some people will now accuse me when I do it for other people that I’m defending looters. But when you do it for them, it is right; that is double standard. And what baffles me is that some high lawyers, who should know better, also accuse some lawyers of defending looters? To hell with anybody who has looted the treasury. I believe in my profession and I thank God for what I am. I am a fulfilled person and don’t want any position from any government, but then government should allow those of us who are privately engaged to do our work. In our offices in Lagos and Abuja, we have over 75 members of staff- professionals and supporting staff. We pay more than what the government pays and don’t owe workers. A cleaner in my office earns far more than what government calls minimum wage. And when you say someone is a looter, who is a looter? Anybody who loots will have his day in court and God will punish looters, but at the same time, judge not, so that you are not judged. And let the accused person defend himself. All religions give room for fair hearing. I grew up to know that when people came to my father to settle disputes, he would say ‘e je ko so tie, agba ti o gbo ejo enikan dajo, agba osika ni’ (let him say his side of the story; an elder who bases his judgement on only one side of the story is wicked). I grew up to know that. So you don’t want people to be heard? If that is the case, change the constitution. So once someone is accused, he is arrested and taken to prison. Then, abolish the courts. That is my position. And what goes around comes around. You may be the accuser today, tomorrow; it may be your turn to face accusations. Let the law take its course. It is tyrannical, dictatorial and smacks of militarism when you start accusing lawyers who defend people. You cannot have democracy without free speech and people having access to courts. You cannot be the accuser, the lawyer and the judge. They say lawyers and judges delay the prosecution of looters, then if they have already been adjudged looters, don’t prosecute them. It is only a court of law that can come to the conclusion that someone has looted the treasury after evidence has been produced.
So where does a lawyer find balance? How do you decide who to defend or who not to defend?
A lawyer is at liberty to defend any case and once he takes up the case, he must do it uncompromisingly to the best of his ability. No lawyer can be condemned for defending any person. But as for me, at times, I might decide not to take some cases because of the extenuating circumstances. Today, I have rejected a particular brief, but I won’t mention names because of the parties concerned. I cherish my independence. A lawyer must not be under the control of any person. My clientele cuts across tribal, ethnical, religious boundaries. Once I take up a case, I take it that there is an unwritten covenant between that person and myself supervised by God and I must not compromise his interest. That is at the bottom line for me. I don’t care what anybody says, I owe a duty to that client just as I did to Gen. Buhari as a candidate without seeing him. Some people briefed me on his behalf and I loyally served him.
Some people will wonder how you are able to handle briefs from people from opposing sides like when you defended Tinubu at the Code of Conduct Tribunal and by 2.30pm on the same day, you were defending former President Goodluck Jonathan in another court. How do you quickly shift allegiances?
What I give my clients is my knowledge, I don’t sell my conscience. I retain my conscience and independence. I cherish my liberty. I keep it. No client will tell me not to represent others, I will tell that client to go. Let me give you an example. Tinubu is not just my client, he is also my friend. I respect him and he respects me but he cannot say he wants to control me. He does not even discuss my professional jobs with me. The day you just referred to, I was at the CCT in the morning in a suit. Jonathan’s election petition was stood down till about 2 pm and immediately I finished addressing the CCT on Tinubu’s matter, I had to go and change for Jonathan’s matter. Jonathan would dare not ask me why I was defending his foe. But one thing I knew then was that there was no Nigerian that Jonathan’s government feared more than Tinubu.
Why do you think so?
I know. In fact, his camp believed they were contesting election against him, that he was the arrowhead of the opposition but they dared not ask me anything about his case. One thing I also noticed was that Jonathan’s team started withdrawing from me gradually because of the Tinubu factor. And I won’t go to anybody to beg for briefs. A lady, whose name I don’t want to mention, called me one day and said these people are in trouble, why are they running away from you? Who cares? I can be very committed to my clients. Former President Umaru Yar’Adua is dead; I was his lawyer since his days as Governor of Katsina State. He was a gentleman per excellence; he would have been the best president Nigeria ever had but he was overwhelmed by his illness. He was so humble, intelligent, honest and frugal. He was the one who appointed me as Pro Chancellor of the University of Ibadan and he told me, Wole, I know you are going to help me revive and revamp that place. Thank God we did that eventually. We changed the entire face of the university. Anytime Tinubu wants to make jest of me, he will say when it comes to law, nobody talks to you, I will say thank God you know that. He knows that when it comes to his case, I will not compromise his interest. Also, I defended Tinubu when the late Funsho Williams took him to the tribunal. He has been my client over the years. And if you are talking of technicality, we had a plan when we handled his CCT case. We had even planned against the ruling and ahead of the ruling. I had already prepared notice of appeal. I had prepared a notice of appeal, a motion for stay of proceedings, and that if the ruling went against us, we would say okay, let’s take a short adjournment, argue that motion for stay of proceedings. Would you say that is technicality? Is that not allowed in law? Today, if I do it for somebody else, would you now want to shoot me down? When people are in government, they appropriate all knowledge to themselves. And it is only they that are patriotic; that can’t be right. It is only God that is always right. I see a lot of us now, who believe that government is always right, that can’t be right. We must objectively critique the government, not to bring it down but to make it perform. Nobody has the divine right to govern over me, you do so through democratic means, therefore, you owe me a duty to do well and listen to me and my complaints. When government says 2 plus 2 equals 10, we clap. We don’t take the government up any longer; we must not be like robots. It is not in the interest of the government, it is not in our own interest and it is not in the interest of our children.
The Federal Government recently proposed the sale of some assets, which was largely condemned by Nigerians. What is your take on it?
I’m not an economist but I think I have some rudimentary knowledge of economics and what is commonsensical, reasonable and just and not hasty and scandalous. I’m a bit worried about how it came to the national front burner as a discourse. Who first hinted the idea? It was the business mogul- Aliko Dangote. Later, the Senate President, Dr. Bukola Saraki, supported it and later on, the Emir of Kano, Muhammadu Sanusi II. As someone who has a stake in this country, I ask, was it accidental or were they acting in concert? I’m not happy with the way things are going on in my country. Dangote is a successful businessman but what is his leverage in economics? Saraki is a medical doctor by training but now a politician by vocation and practice. The Yoruba will say the witch cried yesterday, the child died today, who would not know that it was the witch that killed the child. Is it not a case of people trying to position themselves to buy the assets? We must not allow it to happen. We must not behave like prodigals. Does it make any sense to say you have kidney problem, someone now advises you to remove your brain to solve your kidney problem. Does it make any sense? Is it not nonsensical? Is it not stupid? We are talking about core national assets that are not even failing like the Nigeria Liquefied Natural Gas Limited, which fetches us billions of dollars annually. May the time not come when they will sell off Aso Villa and lease it back to us. I hope the time will not come when they will be selling off Nigerian citizens. I read that Obasanjo said that he agreed that they should sell off the assets but not to the cabals. Who constitute the cabals? They should let us know the beneficiaries of the assets that they have sold in the past. Let us have the list; let us know those who bought directly and those who bought through proxies. They are cheating this country and taking us for a ride. And I heard someone saying government will put a repurchase clause in it; they are insulting our intelligence. What an insult? Is there no law again? I sell this building and put a repurchasing clause that after 10 years, I will buy it back. Who will buy that from you? And which court will enforce it? Enough is enough. They are selling dummies to us every day and insulting the mentality of Nigerians. The CBN governor also said recently that the worst was over as regards recession; that is also insulting. People are hungry and angry and you are saying the worst is over. I have some questions to ask when you say that: are you now saying that before the end of the year, the naira will be restored to the position it was before the crisis? Are you going to give people, who have lost their jobs, the jobs back? Obasanjo must reveal the members of the cabals. And let government stop talking about corruption every day.
Don’t you believe in the anti-corruption fight?
I believe in anti-corruption, you know, I said earlier that woe betide anybody who has looted the treasury or any person who uses his position to amass wealth. But when you keep on describing Nigeria as a country that is corrupt, investors will stay off. And if you know some judges are corrupt, deal with them, but don’t go to another country to say that the judiciary in your country is corrupt; nobody will come there because it is about investment and the rule of law. And when you talk of corruption among lawyers, who are the people? It takes two to tango. Let every politician in Nigeria swear by the god of thunder that he has not tried to induce a judge. Let the President take a cue from the United States President, Barack Obama. George W. Bush squandered American funds on the Gulf War as President of the US because he wanted Saddam Hussein by all means –dead or alive- after the September 11 attack. The economy of the US was comatose when Obama took over, but did you hear him say any bad thing about Bush? He had his own agenda. He started issuing presidential orders and proclamations and within two or three years, the economy was revived without him condemning anybody. To me, government is a continuum. I’m not in the Peoples Democratic Party or the APC; I don’t even see any difference between the two of them when it is so easy for the PDP people to move to the APC and immediately become progressives. You don’t sell that to me. Mr. President should have an inclusive government.